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« ...And Saw the Skull Beneath the Skin | Main | "In his eyes you saw yourself staring back." »

Sunday, December 10, 2006

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"Who cares? Life is too short to bother with the distinction between one figment of the imagination and many."

*headdesk*

Diversity? A multiplicity of viewpoints? Different ways of seeing and approaching the world?

Oh, right. He's only interested in substituting one Truth for... another, equally singular and exclusive one!

His tone may be designed to make the religious feel stupid, but since we are not actually stupid we can see that he is just a big jerk pretending to be a scientist. He actually shoots himself in the foot by being so offensive. With friends like him science doesn't need enemies.

Very thought-provoking review -- this book sounds so frustrating -- and interesting.

I appreciate you pointing out the ways in which you see him as being in some ways similar to the people he obviously intends to convert. One frustration I often have, as a Christian, is that our faith tends to be dismissed and dogged and ridiculed with the same tactics, the same lack of 'tolerance', and the same narrow minded viewpoint that many of the more radical religious leaders get accused of. Though I highly doubt he would convince me of any of his points I personally don't see a disconnect between science and faith. I think ignorance abounds on both sides of the issue yet it is often the 'religious' that take the brunt of the criticism for this. Faith is not something that can be wholly understood with the scientific method nor can one 'prove' the existence of God and yet, to me, that doesn't really lend any credence to his arguments. Anyway, not to get long winded, but I appreciate your candor about the problems you had eventhough you enjoyed the book.

And the man needs to get a different picture, he looks a bit crazed in that one! ;)

Fascinating stuff, I really should read this (and more Dawkins generally, although I tend to be put off by the exact smug superiority that you mention).

As to the 'religion = Christianity/Judaism/Islam' issue, this is a common problem in such 'science v religion' debates. Possibly because of a familiarity with these religions, or because their fundamentalist preachers make such easy targets. The problem with this approach is that it basically states 'you are wrong about this one aspect, so your entire belief system is wrong', which is not a scientific argument. It is the sort of argument that religious fanatics use. So OK for an 'Atheism v Religion' religious debate*, but don't try to pretend that this is a scientific discussion.

*NB, in this context I think that 'religious debate' may well be an oxymoron. Debate isn't really possible between such entrenched view points.

From the quotes in your review, I do note that in his preaching Dawkins is guilty of his own charge of 'intellectual high treason'. He says that to deliberately confuse the gods of pantheists with the Christian God is wrong, yet dismisses the pantheist beliefs with 'Life is too short to bother with the distinction between one figment of the imagination and many.' and goes on to use the label of God to describe all religions. His argument then is that by refuting Christian beliefs in God he refutes all religion, so Atheism is the only truth. This sounds like deliberately confusing pantheist gods and God to me.

I think it might have been during his Christmas Lectures series a long time ago that Dawkins used the multiplicity of religions as an argument against religion in general. I think he has something of a point: if various religions make mutually exclusive claims about the fundamental nature of the universe then they cannot all be right, and yet we have nothing whatsoever to use to chose between them (if we did, we'd be talking about science and not faith!). Even if - and I consider this very unlikely indeed - one of the religions is actually true we have almost no chance whatsoever of picking that true one to believe in, and if whatever we choose to believe in is almost certainly false then why bother believing in anything at all?

(Perhaps believing in something even if it's likely to false confers some benefits to the believer, like a sense of hope or comfort. Or perhaps people are actually attached only to something which is a sort of lowest common denominator of religion, like a sense of consciousness inherent in the universe, rather than all the other things accreted around that belief. Or perhaps the belief in the supernatural stuff is just a sort of key required to enter a community or shorthand for a specific type of moral philosophy. I don't know.)

Rich wrote:

"multiplicity [...] if various religions make mutually exclusive claims about the fundamental nature of the universe then they cannot all be right"

I'm not sure if this was aimed at me, but in case it is: I meant multiplicity *within* religions (or spiritual paths, or whatever) that don't preach a single fundamental truth, but contain multiple viewpoints/focuses e.g. pantheism, polytheism. Not a multiplicity of would-be exclusive faiths. (The latter exists, of course, but it is the former I was indicating to be a positive).

Nic said:

"I'm not sure if this was aimed at me, but in case it is: I meant multiplicity *within* religions (or spiritual paths, or whatever) that don't preach a single fundamental truth, but contain multiple viewpoints/focuses e.g. pantheism, polytheism."

No, that wasn't aimed at you; it was aimed at all the various dogmatic religions in the world. I think that if I were religious - which I manifestly am not - I'd probably believe in something along the lines of the Dalai Lama's Buddhism. I remember hearing Arthur C Clarke describe a conversation with the Dalai Lama in which he asked him what would happen if science disproved one of the tenets of Buddhism. The Dalai Lama smiled, said that he considered that unlikely, and then added something like "But if it happened, then we'd change and be glad to no longer be mistaken."

Ugh, Richard Dawkins. That man infuriates me, and I'm an atheist! He pretty much makes atheists look bad, in the same way that Pat Robertson makes Christians look bad. I agree that when he talks, you can't help but listen. What I find amusing about him is that he has this never-ending hatred for all things religion, but he's more like his enemies than he realizes. But I read an interview with him recently and he didn't come off as the nutcase I think he is. Now I just think he likes to make people mad for his own amusement. I bet he just sits there laughing as he reads the hate mail he no doubt receives from religious people.

"In fact, I don’t even think 'the confusion' is in the least confusing."

Except that Einstein's lines about God and religious feeling frequently get trotted out by modern Christians -- "see? Einstein believed in God!" Yes, intelligent atheists and pantheists can talk about God metaphorically or abstractly, but they'll also be gleefully quote-mined out of context. I think that's where the "intellectual high treason" comes from -- giving ammunition to the enemy. Is he too harsh? Maybe, I'm not sure. But I'd say he's not without a point, either.

Oops, followed a link here, didn't realize how old the discussion was. Sorry.

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