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Monday, December 03, 2007

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Great post. Next up, you need to read "New Light on the Drake Equation". ;-)

My question is this: what did you (in your capacity as a professional historian) think about the debate Brooke is having with himself at the start of the book about great men vs. forces of history, and where do you think the book ultimately comes down on the issue?

Must read this one, really... what an interesting premise! And you write about it so intelligently! Nice blog!

When I first started reading your post and say the words 'alternate history' and 'Germany' I thought: oh no! Not another novel in which Germany won WWII! :-) It never occured to me, in that split second, that it might be WWI and that Britain might grow its own Hitler. But thinking about it, tis such a rich idea and sounds fascinating.

One question. You mention in your post that Hitler still exists in Macleod's world and wrote 'Mein Kampf' meaning, I suppose, that he was still an anti-semitic, racist sociopath *despite* Germany winning the war. At the same time, it seems that John Arthur becomes analogous to him *because* of Britain's defeat. I suppose what I'm wondering is, does John Arthur/Francis always have the potential to become a dictator or is it circumstance that creates him? Is he always susceptible to fascist ideology? If not, what stops MacLeod from writing Hitler out of history altogether? Is it simply not possible for us to imagine a world in which Hitler did not have the potential to become the supreme bad guy? In which he was also galvinised to hate by his WWI experiences? (Am I making sense? Heeeeigh!)

JCR: thanks!

Victoria: It's just a passing reference, so it isn't clear whether the _Mein Kampf_ mentioned in _The Summer Isles_ is the same as the one written in our timeline, or substantially different. I suspect he's meant to be analogous to someone like Mosley in the UK in our own time - someone who has strong sympathies with the fascisms that manifest elsewhere, who attracts some support, but who is a fringe figure in his own country - and perhaps himself not as strongly radicalised - because the conditions aren't right (government is more stable, people lack that sense of betrayal from surrender in the War, etc).

At the same time, it's strongly implied at several points that many of the ideas that would form the basis of Arthur's fascist regime are around and very common before the War, and that Francis had leanings towards several types of radical politics before he 'became' Arthur during the War. What defeat in the War (and the legacy of it) does, I think, is give these ideas much more urgency - for Francis and for the rest of the country - while at the same time undermining both conventional government AND alternative radical politics. It's worth bearing in mind, as I say, that Francis/Arthur and Brooke are both engaged in some self-justification here.

I think the idea is that some people will always give credence to bigoted ideas, but that certain circumstances will both radicalise individual bigots and give their voices more weight with the general populace. Does that answer your question?

Niall: I think what I've just said to Victoria probably goes some way towards answering this question. For my own part I think the great men/forces of history issue is a false dichotomy, at least framed in those terms - a phrase like 'forces of history', for a start, is way too teleological and Marxist for my taste - although it's very much of the intellectual milieu in which Brooke is operating. He suggests that history is becoming more about 'great men' (like Arthur), but I think that his initial analysis is more to the point, because it's more nuanced: that 'great men' are only great/influential because a combination of circumstances and chance and choice (and, quite often, good posthumous PR) make them so, or appear to be so.

Individuals have agency within a nexus of circumstance and possibility. The choices they make in turn create further possibilities. Of course, how influential one's choices are depends upon one's circumstances (status, ability, opportunity). And sometimes circumstance and/or the choices of others will just swamp them. And so on. The two things - choice and circumstance - can't be separated.

I also think this is where the book comes down. Arthur is a product of his time but he also chooses to take up the mantle of Arthur; the fascist government oppresses individual freedom but it does partly because people choose to go along with it (both at key moments and in everyday life). So it acknowledges the importance of context while also calling the individual - every individual - to account. People are the victims of history, and also its architects.

Which may sound like fence-sitting, but alas (or rather, yay!) history is a messy and fascinating thing. :-)

Victoria: see also Jo Walton's current trilogy (Farthing, Ha'Penny, and Half a Crown) -- I don't know, you wait decades for a 'Britain loses World War I alternate history', and then two come along at once.

Nic: And this is where I break out Graham's review. :)

http://www.strangehorizons.com/reviews/2006/05/the_summer_isle-comments.shtml

"In the end, some shifts do occur in Griffin's world, partly providing an answer to a dilemma which has bothered him throughout the book. It's an old historical debate: does change occur because of individuals or social and historical forces? Any alternate history inevitably places its bets on one side or other. The Summer Isles seems to argue, in tune with Griffin's "gossipy" view of history, that individuals are what matters: John Arthur's emergence is the most significant difference between its history and ours. But Griffin seems at the end to suggest that some events would have happened anyway, and Arthur was surely in the right place at the right time. For a book which MacLeod surely intends in part as a warning against the easiness of intolerance, The Summer Isles takes a pretty agnostic view about the worth of individuals. Novels of change have to assign some worth to moral agency: The Summer Isles half-believes in change, and half-believes in agency."

(I agree with you, I think -- actually, the way I'd put it is that the book argues that how we understand history depends on the times and events we live through; hence Brooke's attempt to argue that great men have come to dominate -- so I'm just stirring, really.)

So I'm fence-sitting too? Yay!

See, I thought you were mildly criticising the book for being fence-sitting ...

And I was all prepared to call you a wronghead for said apparent criticism, Graham. I can't believe you'd deprive me of that! *pouts*

I really enjoy this blog but that use of 'alternate' instead of 'alternative' is grating! It's American - I don't think they use 'alternative' anymore.

Back in the 1990s, I produced a novel (called 'His Majesty's Dictator') set in 1948 with a very similar set-up: Britain defeated in 1916 leading to a military dictatorship in the UK with Fascist overtones (though ironically with Germany victorious in 1916 there was no rise of the Nazis). I never found a publisher for it and I think it comes down to the fact that the average reader finds it difficult to get their head around 'what if?' fiction. A friend of mine who likes science fiction, always avoids counter-factual fiction because he says that he never knows enough of the real history to spot the differences. This is why I think there are so many novels featuring a victory by the Germans in the Second World War as so many people know about that (though one reason why the 'Fatherland' movie did so poorly was because too few of the current generation knew the real history).

I have yet to read the Jo Walton triology, but from internet reviews, I think rather than the liberal view that Macleod takes, Walton is more in line with current US 'what if?' novels that come from a more right-wing perspective suggesting that a less democratic approach would have been 'better' for the UK and kept its empire intact longer.

I do not want to be a self-publicist, but if you are interested my unpublished novel on these lines, it is in full on my blog, see: http://rooksmoor.blogspot.com/2008/06/his-majestys-dictator-chapter-1-counter.html

A comment on that blog led me to come here and read the excellent review of Macleod's work.

Of course, to pre-empt, before anyone tells me again, I know my writing is appalling compared to Macleod's and so that, rather than its counter-factual focus, is probably why my novel was never published. I was told my writing lacks 'verve and pace'.

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